Curse

Swingline · Jul 27, 2011, 10:30 PM // 22:30

There needs to be a prominent way of stripping chants either by skills on the opposite team or within the para skills themselves before a paragon buff. Shouts should be left alone, don't want the poor warrior to suffer because of another class.

AndrewSX · Jul 28, 2011, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I'm not a huge para expert, but about possible changes i'm on the same line with Swingline (pun not intended :P), and i said it in another thread too:

as long as there isn't any way to seriously counter/punish/strip all chants/echoes/shouts like you can with spells/enchs/attacks, there won't be room for revert/revamp pvp paras (for their support role).

Let's look at facts: what are the actual counter to shouts? 3 nec spells (one inflict degeneration for shouting, another is a well..), and some rupts for chants.
Afaik, the main issue that leaded to para (expecially pvp) nerf was this: lack of natural counters(expecially for the stacking).

Unless are introduced ways to punish (empathy/scourge/mistrust-whatever hex you'd like to apply to shouts), condition able to influence them (Daze is the most probable) and a way to strip them, we won't see changes about those. Is inevitable.

For pve...well, the main problem is that pve became just a (armor-ignoring) AoE dmg spamfest. Paras aren't the only ones suffering for this.

[Is the same issue of rangers....they have 3 skills -2elites- and splinter to tackle it, but isn't a solution at all, no?]

Just my ideas about this balance issue, for the few things i know, so i may be wrong.

P.S: about the "shout" word: was just too lazy to write down the other definition. War shouts ARE balanced. (take out SY! for equation thought).

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 28, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

I'm not a huge para expert, but about possible changes i'm on the same line with Swingline (pun not intended :P), and i said it in another thread too:

as long as there isn't any way to seriously counter/punish/strip all chants/echoes/shouts like you can with spells/enchs/attacks, there won't be room for revert/revamp pvp paras (for their support role).

Let's look at facts: what are the actual counter to shouts? 3 nec spells (one inflict degeneration for shouting, another is a well..), and some rupts for chants.
Afaik, the main issue that leaded to para (expecially pvp) nerf was this: lack of natural counters(expecially for the stacking).

Unless are introduced ways to punish (empathy/scourge/mistrust-whatever hex you'd like to apply to shouts), condition able to influence them (Daze is the most probable) and a way to strip them, we won't see changes about those. Is inevitable.

For pve...well, the main problem is that pve became just a (armor-ignoring) AoE dmg spamfest. Paras aren't the only ones suffering for this.

[Is the same issue of rangers....they have 3 skills -2elites- and splinter to tackle it, but isn't a solution at all, no?]

Just my ideas about this balance issue, for the few things i know, so i may be wrong.

P.S: about the "shout" word: was just too lazy to write down the other definition. War shouts ARE balanced. (take out SY! for equation thought).

I have already suggested Daze as a shutdown mechanism for shouts and chants, and plenty of counters for shout spamming already exist, please see Visions of Regret and Spiteful Spirit among others. Soothing, Soothing Images, Empathy, blind, etc. are also very effective, since no adrenaline means no energy and no shouts.

Instead of embarking on an effort to drastically change game mechanics, I would instead ask you which anthems or shouts are even worth stripping, and then ask yourself whether stripping shouts off of a paragon that refreshes them every few seconds is even feasible. What you are suggesting is the same as trying to strip enchantments off of a dervish... technically, it is possible, but only for a few seconds. He can refresh flash enchantments much faster than you can strip them. If you could somehow strip shouts and chants it would be even worse since many shouts and chants affect all within earshot. There is already a class of skills in the game with this kind of short-duration short-recharge party-affecting behavior... they are called Orders. Technically you can strip Orders off of someone but it is futile since the Orders are refreshed a few seconds later. The paragon works the same way. Therefore I would suggest that the concept of stripping shouts and chants is not only futile, but doesn't even make sense, and the developers are unlikely to make changes to a huge number of skills to make it happen. Instead we should look at other ways to moderate the power of shouts and chants so that they can be negated in other ways. For example, having them end after 1..x..y hits like Watch Yourself, or having them end if target is hexed or enchanted or attacks. There are already skills with such end conditions in the game. The dangerous shouts and chants would be those with long duration, strong effect, and no end condition... e.g. a shout version of Protective Spirit. Since the shout can't be stripped it needs have some other negation or end condition to make it balanced. You'll notice that the ritualist weapon spells and spirits usually have such an end condition... Shelter takes damage for each bit of protection it gives, until it dies and Shelter goes away. Xinrae's Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Weapon of Remedy, Brutal Weapon and Splinter Weapon are good examples of this behavior, they end after a certain number of hits or under some other condition. Resilient Weapon and Vengeful was Khanhei are BAD examples... they can't be stripped and their effects don't end until the duration runs out.

AndrewSX · Jul 28, 2011, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I see your reasoning, but the point (imo) is that there were issues that forced to nerf those skills to the ground. Till those issues aren't solved, talking of a paragon reverting to prenerf isn't even remotely possible, unless changing radically the way each skill touched works.
And the only issue that i can imagine stands is the shout unstrippability and stackability, expecially in the organized PvP enviroment.

-Yeah, stripping enchs off a derv doesn't make sense. But that is due to the fact that the power of derv's enchs explode only on the end: for example, staggering force hit for a little dmg and turn attacks in earth, but you do not strip it not cause you fear the earth dmg, but because stripping it trigger the AoE cracked armor(and have a 6sec CD, but dervs aren't really so balanced in numbers atm sometimes) or avatar effect.
-Orders have a very narrow utility, focused on physical attacks, and their duration is always under 5 sec. The recharge here is nearly absent because orders are intended to be maintenaible, but only with sacrifice (saccing every 5 secs isn't really healty).
-As you said, most of Rits weapons/items/buffing spirits have in fact some terms of ending that ensure the balancing. Only specializing can exploit those, like a Rit using ST for perma Shelther-and in fact this exploiting is in meta for a reason. Splinter have attack limit, resto weapons trigger on incoming dmg, etc. This is why Rit's unstrippability isn't a huge issue (but remember that they're very powerful anyway).
-Para's shouts instead, were able to protect the whole team (as long as in range) with armor (SYG) buffing, healing or even blocking. All toghether with enough paras around stacking those effects. But still unstrippable or difficult to stop. Ah, and they have 80+ armor while staying in the mid-backline.

The point is that, for what i know, paras were able to pump out a "Aegis-like effect" (shout stacking in order to reduce dmg/buff/etc) while spearing (and if in pve spear aren't good, in pvp they're just fine to dmg stuff). The problem was that there weren't any way to strip/punish that kind "Aegis".

So, or you turn shouts/echoes/chants in earshot-range enchantements, or you punish the stacking (like putting the clause "Ends prematurely w/o end effect if target becomes affected from x other blablabla"), or you give a overhelming ability to stop a para to shout to other profs.

Your suggestions are great and well-thought, don't get me wrong, but i'm not sure that they touch the aspect that needs to be fixed in order to negate the issues seen in the past, and thus giving possibility to revert nerfs.

That said, i'm the first to say that i'm not even remotely a para or pvp expert, but mine are just ideas and criticism (hoping is welcome) based on what i know.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 28, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

I see your reasoning, but the point (imo) is that there were issues that forced to nerf those skills to the ground. Till those issues aren't solved, talking of a paragon reverting to prenerf isn't even remotely possible, unless changing radically the way each skill touched works.
And the only issue that i can imagine stands is the shout unstrippability and stackability, expecially in the organized PvP enviroment.

Most of the nerfs were in 2006-2007, before the PvE/PvP split, even before hard mode existed. Unfortunately all of those skills that were nerfed due to PvP concerns have stayed that way even in PvE.

I am not sure what you mean by 'stackability', or if that is even a problem. There is no limit to the amount of enchantments you can have or the amount of spirits that can affect you...

re: stripping shouts and chants, if you think about it you'll realize that it is impossible to do since even the mass enchant stripping skills like Mirror of Disenchantment and Chilblains would be unable to keep up with the shouts from even one paragon, much less several of them. Even a skill that stripped every shout and chant from a target would be nearly useless because they get refreshed so quickly.

Quote:

The point is that, for what i know, paras were able to pump out a "Aegis-like effect" (shout stacking in order to reduce dmg/buff/etc) while spearing (and if in pve spear aren't good, in pvp they're just fine to dmg stuff). The problem was that there weren't any way to strip/punish that kind "Aegis".

So, or you turn shouts/echoes/chants in earshot-range enchantements, or you punish the stacking (like putting the clause "Ends prematurely w/o end effect if target becomes affected from x other blablabla"), or you give a overhelming ability to stop a para to shout to other profs.

I suppose you are referring to Defensive Anthem. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Defensive_Anthem) This chant has an end condition, but it is easily avoided or rendered meaningless. Physical attackers can simply auto-attack while it is up, or else just continue on as normal because in PvP the physicals don't get attacked anyway, and therefore do not need blocking from Defensive Anthem. The casters don't have attack skills and can't cancel the Defensive Anthem even by accident, so the end condition is meaningless for them. Therefore the end condition for Defensive Anthem does not have a negative impact, and the fact that it is unstrippable becomes a big problem. It's also worth noting that Aegis (PvP) was changed to have completely different functionality (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aegis_%28PvP%29). Even though Aegis is an enchantment and can be stripped, existing methods of enchant stripping were not enough to prevent it from causing problems. If enchant stripping was not enough to stop Aegis, even with its long recharge, how can we believe that shout-stripping would be enough to keep up with the sheer number of shouts and chants that one paragon can put out? I think having natural limits or end conditions built into the shouts and chants is the way to go. Trying to strip shouts and chants is not practical at all, even if it were possible.

AndrewSX · Jul 28, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

For "Stackability" i mean just the fact that you can lay down endless shouts: is true for enchs too, right, but enchs have the counter, so isn't a great problem, instead, is usal cover important enchs with less expensive/useful/important ones. Also, some skills can strip more at once. For non-strippable buffs this might became a problem. Spirits are vulnerable to direct attacks: cause they can't affect each other, the best way to "strip" shelther is kill the spirit. Weapon spells would incur in the same problem, but as we all know, they're limited to one at time.
Paragon skills doesn't have stripping enemies neither upper limit, so the only reliable way to halt them is kill the para(s), and this may be a problem.
Sure, there's a "recharge war" in enchs versus disench cooldowns, but that's how GW works.

Btw, implementing limitations, as you say, directly in how skill works seems a good way to go probably, but...is just that Anet should be VERY careful if going that way. It would be easy to re-create the balance problem if reling only on limitations in how the skills works. As you said, for example, Defensive anthem end condition is meaningless for casters, making it too powerful for defend back line like monks, always under heay pressure.

So imo, Anet should not apply that solution alone. I still think that a redesign could bump up a bit a couple of skills specific for shout hate, or make them affected by daze, or whatever counter they can think about, that's all.

P.S: ah, my bad. I was thinking to the PvE Aegis, the ench 50% block on earshot range.

Essence Snow · Jul 28, 2011, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Doesn't vocal minority and ulcerous lungs to a lesser degree pretty much counter shouts to the point where saying they are unfair...is null 'n' void?

AndrewSX · Jul 28, 2011, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Well, those hexes were already around when paras had their moment of glory....but if they got nerfed anyway there should be a reason, no?

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 28, 2011, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Doesn't vocal minority and ulcerous lungs to a lesser degree pretty much counter shouts to the point where saying they are unfair...is null 'n' void?

Totally agree...
Vocal Minority prevents all shouts and chants and (imo) is completely unfair... if there were a hex that prevented target and all nearby foes from attacking or casting spells for 5..17..20 seconds people would scream bloody murder. But because there is so much paragon hate out there, no one has a complaint if paragons (and warriors) are completely prevented from using shouts forever.
Compare Vocal Minority to Shroud of Silence for example... Vocal is AoE, lasts more than six times as long, costs less energy, has no drawback and is not even elite. On the anti-physical side you can compare Vocal Minority with Pacifism.

Ulcerous Lungs is a pretty decent skill but not that effective, simply because mass degen is not that effective.

The basic problem with the anti-paragon skills is that they are so specialized that no one wants to bring them, and because paragons have been nerfed so badly there really isn't any need to bring them. Paragons are not a real threat anymore. A better solution is to change the shouts and chants so that they have natural counters or end conditions and provide other ways to shut the paragon down (blind, daze) instead of relying on overpowered paragon-specific shutdown skills.

Essence Snow · Jul 28, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

not to mention the very annoying soothing images, soothing (spirit), blind, blurred vision...etc...

for the most part paras got neferd not b/c of paras, but b/c of other profs exploiting the para secondary...tie the good stuff to leadership and maybe add some pvp leadership split...oh and ofc.....motivation needs help

Bobby Sox · Aug 04, 2011, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Here's an idea. I haven't fleshed it out all the way yet, but what if a simple change was made to the anti-shout skills to make them counter the effects on a target, rather than the usage of shouts?

Examples (I left the numbers as they are currently stand in most of these):

Cacophony-Hex Spell. For 10 seconds, whenever target foe is affected by a shout or chant, that foe takes 35...91...105 damage. OR

Cacophony-Hex Spell. For 30 seconds, whenever target foe is affected by a shout or chant, the shouter takes 15...67...80 damage (basing it off of the old way of dealing with Heal Party spam: Scourge Healing).

Well of Silence-Well Spell. Exploit target corpse to create a Well of Silence for 10...26...30 seconds. Foes within the well cannot be affected by shouts or chants and suffer -1...3...4 Health degeneration.

Vocal Minority-Hex Spell. For 5...17...20 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes cannot be affected by shouts or chants.

Ulcerous Lungs-Hex Spell. For 10...22...25 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes suffer from -4 Health degeneration when Bleeding, and whenever they are affected by a shout or chant, they Bleed for 3...13...15 seconds.

Yes, I realize that a couple of those still don't sound like they would be slotted too often because they are too niche. As I said, I haven't really thought it over completely yet. They could be tweaked for that purpose. I just wanted to get across my idea.

Do you think those would count as proper counters to shouts and chants?

spandexninja · Aug 20, 2011, 08:48 AM // 08:48

If an imbagon remake is coming (and I'm hoping it is), how soon would you guys reckon it would happen? How often do they do those class overhauls like they did with Mesmer and Dervish?

uby · Aug 20, 2011, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I wouldn't count on a paragon overhaul coming out anytime soon, if at all.
You might see some skills moved to Leadership and made more powerful for primary paragons only, then revamping chants/shouts (especially in motivation) to be one-time/one-user effects so as to limit the stacking power of multiple paragons.

Killed u man · Aug 21, 2011, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Leadership: For each ally near you, your attacks hit 1 additional foe near your target. (Like barrage prtty much)

Paragon usefull.

bj91x · Aug 22, 2011, 10:43 PM // 22:43

I don't PVP so what I'm saying only applies to PVE.

I'd change Leadership to this:

"Whenever you use a shout or a chant, you gain 2 energy at 3 Leadership, 4 energy at 8 Leadership, and 6 energy at 13 Leadership. In addition, for each party member in earshot, you deal x more damage with your regular attacks (maximum x additional damage)."

This will fix the energy management problems for small groups. It would also make single target shouts and chants more viable for returning energy. This would also slightly increase a Paragon's damage without letting other classes make better use of spear attacks.

I'd also slightly boost spear attack skills. This would allow Paragons to deal more damage without having to rely on teammates.

In terms of multiple Paragons spamming boosting skills, I'd change the skills so that stacking them doesn't do much. For example, I'd change Anthem of Flame to the following:

"For 10 seconds, attacks made by each party member has a x~x% chance to cause burning for x seconds."

This will mean that taking multiple copies of AoF won't increase its damage. This also fixes the current problem of AoF where all party members could use their attack skills at around the same time, resulting in very little effect from burning.

While Motivation seems nice on paper, it over heals more often than not and has a hard time healing targets that need the heals. Here's an example of how I'd change it (Song of Restoration):

"For 20 seconds, all party members in earshot are affected by Song of Restoration. The next time each party member uses a skill when at below x% health, that party member is healed for x health and Song of Restoration ends on that party member."

Khomet Si Netjer · Aug 25, 2011, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

I don't PVP so what I'm saying only applies to PVE.

I'd change Leadership to this:

"Whenever you use a shout or a chant, you gain 2 energy at 3 Leadership, 4 energy at 8 Leadership, and 6 energy at 13 Leadership. In addition, for each party member in earshot, you deal x more damage with your regular attacks (maximum x additional damage)."

This will fix the energy management problems for small groups. It would also make single target shouts and chants more viable for returning energy. This would also slightly increase a Paragon's damage without letting other classes make better use of spear attacks.

I'd also slightly boost spear attack skills. This would allow Paragons to deal more damage without having to rely on teammates.

In terms of multiple Paragons spamming boosting skills, I'd change the skills so that stacking them doesn't do much. For example, I'd change Anthem of Flame to the following:

"For 10 seconds, attacks made by each party member has a x~x% chance to cause burning for x seconds."

This will mean that taking multiple copies of AoF won't increase its damage. This also fixes the current problem of AoF where all party members could use their attack skills at around the same time, resulting in very little effect from burning.

While Motivation seems nice on paper, it over heals more often than not and has a hard time healing targets that need the heals. Here's an example of how I'd change it (Song of Restoration):

"For 20 seconds, all party members in earshot are affected by Song of Restoration. The next time each party member uses a skill when at below x% health, that party member is healed for x health and Song of Restoration ends on that party member."

these are some great ideas, I am going to put the ideas for anthem of flame and song of restoration on my suggestions page if you don't mind.

re: song of restoration, it needs more power to justify its elite status imo, otherwise there is no point in bringing it when Heal Party, PwK, Life, Divine Healing, Heaven's Delight and Healing Burst are available. I really like the idea though, this version prevents it from being wasted by healing characters that are already at full health.

i suppose that we could suggest a similar change for Anthem of Weariness as well. +P% chance to cause weakness for x..y..z seconds.

not sure about the leadership suggestion... it removes the need for paragons to have party members within earshot (which could be a good thing) but it may not fit with Anet's design concept. It would definitely help in situations where the paragon is alone or with a small group (AB, GvG splits, solo farming, 4-man areas of PvE) but it also hurts them at the high end. Paras can gain 8e per shout @ 16 leadership, and this is useful for some builds if the paragon can devote that many attribute points to it.
re: additional spear damage, I think PvPers would scream bloody murder about it, as most of these people seem to despise paragons already because of their ultra scary spear attacks. (/sigh) It is hard to argue with people that live in some other reality. In PvE the spear is completely outclassed by the weapons of other professions... single-target attacks are just not that useful in PvE, and this is all the spear can do. I suppose any boost to spear damage would help though.

bj91x · Aug 25, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying about my suggestion for Leadership going in a different direction than what Anet wants. However, this is the very reason I suggested it.

IMO, too many Paragon skills rely on synergyzing with what the team has in order for the Paragon to deal damage. This isn't always easy when playing with PUGs. Plus, Paragon heroes deal terrible damage on their own due to the lack of PVE specific skills. This is why I was hoping that Leadership and Spear Mastery can boost the Paragon's damage without relying on the team (I'm only making PVE suggestions, btw). For team synergy, there's always Command and Motivation.

I don't think my Leadership suggestion is a great idea but I just wanted to express what problems I have with Paragons in PVE. I'm sure other people can post something better.

PenitentRage · Aug 26, 2011, 07:33 AM // 07:33

I'm not sure that a flat increase in damage would change much for the class. I prefer the idea of giving the class some sort of AoE, but less for the increase in damage (which getting AoEs would obviously do regardless) and more for the possibility of pumping out more support.

Seeing as how Para anthems don't interact with multi-target physical attacks, I think it would be cool and unique for a multi-target spear skill or two that let each hit receive the "on next hit" benefits.

Perhaps Mighty Throw and Unblockable Throw, since they are rarely used due to the drawbacks, and deserve some attention anyway. Leave the cast time and bonuses, add "+2 targets nearby", bring the bonus damage down to around +10 at 12 spear, and allow each hit to gain "on next hit" benefits.

"Find Their Weakness!", and Anthem of Fury should remain single target.

TiagoS1 · Aug 26, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Vocal Minority prevents all shouts and chants and (imo) is completely unfair... if there were a hex that prevented target and all nearby foes from attacking or casting spells for 5..17..20 seconds people would scream bloody murder.

Exactly!!

I would love to see such a skill. Too much physical hate nowadays, i want some caster hateeeeeeee!

Lanier · Aug 26, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Really, I think that Leadership is fine as it is. The attribute that is - many of the support skills in the attribute line suck and need functionality changes.

As for AoE, I do not think that paragons need an AoE attack per say. They are a support profession, and as such, I think their AoE damage should come from support skills (ritualist's splinter weapon for example). Maybe change an anthem so that the next time each ally attacks a target, each attack does x amount of damage to adjacent foes. A targeted shout might be nice, but it would probably be too similar to splinter and the problem with targeted shouts is that they don't synergize well with leadership.